Learning Chinese - time -

> Learning Chinese > Grammar and Vocabulary
time
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rezaf -

时间和时候有什么区别？请写一些例子。



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againstwind -

Simply speaking, 时间 is an interval separating two points on this continuum, 时候 is a
particular interval, or rather a point, of time.

e,g,
A：你每天都学习汉语吗？
B：差不多每天都学习。
A：你每天学习多少时间？
B：不一定。工作不太忙的时候，学习的时间就多一些。
A：那么，你什么时候学习呢？
B：什么时候学习都可以呀。比如，坐车的时候可以听录音，跟中国人谈话的
时候可以练习说汉语，下班以后，可以长时间地学习。
A：你可真会利用时间学习啊。你有空的时候，请多帮助我吧。
B：行，没问题。今天晚上我有时间，你来我这儿吧。

You see, you can use measure words or adjectives to modify 时间, such as 一段时间,
一年时间, 半个月的时间, 很长时间, 多少时间 and so on. It must be a duration with
a beginning and an end. But 时候 is a particular point of time, such as 什么时候, 这时候,
那时候, ……的时候 and so on.


Besides, 时间 can also express a particular moment.
e.g.
开车的时间到了。
时间到了，下课吧。

时间 is also used as a term.
e.g.
北京时间比格林尼治时间早8小时。
时间和空间是两个哲学概念。










rezaf -

thanks. a very good explanation. (i don't know wether this sentence is correct in english or not)
how can i say"meanwhile i was eating he was drinking tea" ?










hijhp -

meanwhile i was eating he was drinking tea.
当我吃饭的时候，他在喝茶












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Learn Chinese - Translation of a "jedi code" -

> Learning Chinese > Chinese Tattoos, Chinese Names and Quick Translations
Translation of a "jedi code"
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lauli -

Hello all,

I'm new to this forum (I just started taking chinese classes at university). And right of the
start I have a translation question.
I would like to translate the following quote from the Star Wars books (I'm not sure if they have
been translated into chinese, so maybe there is an official translation), and use it as a tattoo
later on

"Peace over anger. Honor over hate. Strength over fear."

I looked up the words in the dictionary, but I'm honestly unable to put them together as a
sentence Would be great if someone could help me out ... and thanks in advance!



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againstwind -

Peace over anger. Honor over hate. Strength over fear
平静战胜愤怒。尊敬战胜仇恨。力量战胜恐惧。

This is a sort of version.

Are you sure you want to use it as a tattoo？I just feel... it...too many characters.
Anyway, may the Force be with you.












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Pnyin - korean students -

> Studying, Working and Living in China > Universities and Schools
korean students
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rezaf -

i have been studying chinese in shanghai for a month and the reason that i write this is because i
am very angry . all of my classmates are koreans and i have never seen such lazy and uninterested
students in my life. they hardly attend half of the classes. never do their homework and just
speak in korean with each other when the teacher is teaching. i study for 5 hours a day and now i
can read and write 430 words but i doubt that my some of my classmates know more than 30
words(including the numbers and wo ni ...) and after 1 month they can not pronounce zh, ch, sh, z,
c . they have slowed down the class and made it difficult for me to learn in the class because the
teachers must spend a lot of time in teaching the very basic words and grammer everyday. there was
a good teacher who tried to make the environment creative but korean students protested against
this teacher and didnt come to her class this week and wanted the university to give them back the
money for this class. as a result the 校长 came to our class today and told her that they are
going to change her next week. i just want to know if in all the universities the situation isthe
same and does anyone have any suggestion what i should do in such a lazy class?



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heifeng -



Quote:

month they can not pronounce zh, ch, sh, z, c

The bad news is this will never change.

SOME (not all) Korean students are in China b/c they are not 'top-tier' students, thus came to
China for school.

OTHER Korean students are really hard working b/c they need an 8 or 10 on the HSK. Find those
students. Even though they are a bit too test obsessed, you'll be happier.

I don't have too many quelms w/the Korean students here in BJ, but on occasion have been annoyed
when in a class of 40 students they are collectively creating a hum of Korean speaking during
class and only myself and my uzbekistanian classmate and the teacher is speaking Chinese. But
occasionally there will be a Korean student 'not in with the pack'. Maybe they are outcasts for
some reason, maybe they just got back from their military training and find others too immature
now...but some decent ones are around.

Don't get too disheartened. Learn some free Korean, and let them take you out for dinner at least
once and then never reciprocate...turn lemons into lemonaide or start planning subtle ways to get
revenge just to give your days a beam of sunlight.










adrianlondon -

Ask to move classes. Maybe all your classmates know each other and are just there for something to
do; with no real goal.

The three Koreans in my class were different. The two girls (very different ages) worked really
hard while the young guy did nothing for the first month or so. Then something happened and ...
wow, he worked really hard and suddenly did so well. But yes, their pronunciation is often wrong
but that's just because of the Korean language. Brits find it hard to differentiate between "x"
and "sh" for example, but I'm still understood










Shadowdh -

Man if they changed the teacher as the students were too selfish and lazy to keep up then complain
right back and comment on the fact that the other students are just lazy and dont work...










wushijiao -

One of my good friends in Shanghai is a Korean guy getting his PhD at Fudan, and what he said as
far as Korean students is basically: there are a small percentage of Korean students who are from
good/elite Korean universities who are studying abroad in China. These people. in general, take
studying very seriously. I know a few Koreans who have amazing Putonghua, to the point where I
wasn't 100% sure if they were native speakers.

Then, according to my friend, there is a whole different wave of Koreans who have come to China
because, in many cases, they couldn't get into college at all back home. Studying in China is way
cheaper than in Korea, so their parents let them. To some degree, China is like their "spring
break" party place.










Hero Doug -

It sounds like you're just going to end up waisting your money and time. Can you switch classes or
get a refund?

I think you'd be better off with a tutor and self-study then the environment you're in (not sure
how possible that is). And the thing is; with Chinese universities (at least the one's I've seen)
your whole class takes an entire subject, so there's no chance of having them for just a bad class
once a week.

Possibly one of the best solutions (at the risk of being the class outcast) is to monopolize the
teacher's attention. I don't know what the class structure is like but when a question is asked
always give an answer with follow up question and try to make the teacher go off topic.










rezaf -

without a visa i can not stay in china. so studying with a tutor is not a choice.but does anyone
know if it's possible to change the university in the middle of the semester?










gato -

What school are you at?

There should be at least a policy that students shouldn't have private chats during class, so the
students who don't care to learn don't end up disrupting those who do. If those are noisy during
class, complain to the teachers and the school administrators. Go as high up the leadership ladder
as you can. The most powerful person in a school is its Party secretary, if you didn't already
know (though I doubt he/she would be accessible). If they won't enforce their own rules, tell them
you want your money back. Organize with other students who feel the same way and file your
complaint together. 团结就是力量。 加油！










rezaf -

It seems that the korean mafia is stronger than the policies , the reason that i chose this school
was that there are only 10 to 20 students in each class and the teachers are relatively good but
now i understand that i made a mistake.










gato -

That's too bad. Try complaining to the school president anyway. Maybe something can be done.

Or you can hang out with jujubeans119 who posted below about East China Normal University
(华东师范大学). It's basically Shanghai's counterpart to Beijing Normal University and
sounds pretty good.
http://www. /showth...947#post102947
East china normal uni in shanghai.












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HSK Exam - ZDT - Request For Help - No Characters appearing -

> Learning Chinese > Chinese Computing and Technology > ZDT Flashcards Forum
ZDT - Request For Help - No Characters appearing
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albaker -

I have installed the ZDT flash card program.

The application appears to start OK.

BUT

When I try to use the flash cards none of the chines characters will appeear, just a square box.

In the Dictionary the Charaters do not appear either, just boxes, the rest of the information
display OK.

Version ... 0.6.1

O/S......... Windows XP

Install....... Selected the "setup-full" dowload.

NOTE........ MS Office is not on this box


ANY help or advice greatly appreciatted !



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albaker -

whew - I fianlly got it to work.

Installed "Asian Languages" support on XP, the rebooted, the under control panel selected
additionl lanuage of "mandarin PRC".

Hmm did everbody else just know to do this ?? - just a thoght, one might want to add it to the
install instructions !

Also - if i attempted to use the HELP function the program would lock up with a JAVA error.

I had to go under the Preferences area and select for help to be displayed in and "External
Browser".

Hope my pain help someone else.










chinesetools -

Do you have any Chinese fonts installed?










drahnier -

Did you install Asian character support in Regional and Language Settings?












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Chinese Mandarin - Language Pledges - Page 2 -

> Studying, Working and Living in China > Universities and Schools
Language Pledges
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Page 2 of 2 < 1 2






venture160 -

I've done a language pledge as well with CET Harbin. I thought it worked VERY well, but I did it
for 12 months straight and afterwards it took about 2-3 months to get my english back up to speed,
and even longer to fix my writing skills. But it helped to improve my spoken chinese, and we
avoided the pitfall of only speaking to Americans in Chinese by having Chinese roommates. Also, it
was a great way to avoid the english langauge tutoring, just tell them if you speak english you
get sent back to the states.

For the past three months I have been in the states taking classes here, and besides my classes, I
have been under a self imposed language pledge. I have chinese roommates, and when i go between
classes its nothing but radio shows I have downloaded onto my mp3 player. 80% of the news I read
was in Chinese. I am on spring break taking some time off from this, but I"ll prob return to this
mode in a few weeks.



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crow610 -

So those of you who are on this "pledge", do you also think in Chinese?










venture160 -

I did thinking, dreaming and counting in Chinese.










kdavid -

Someone a few posts back mentioned being approached by other non-native Chinese speakers. I've
found a good remedy for this problem:

Whenever I'm approached by someone wanting to practice their English in the streets, in a
restaurant, etc., I just tell them I'm Czech and can't speak English (in Chinese). If they
continue to try and speak English, I just make a confused face and walk away. It's actually quite
entertaining.










xianu -

I am surprised by how adamant some of you are about refusing to speak English, and coming up with
little background scenarios for dealing with it. I didn't mind meeting and speaking English with
people, Chinese or foreign. I made some great friends from many different places, and I like to
think I helped a lot of frustrated travelers gain an appreciation for China (rather than be all
bitter about it).Perhaps because I am ethnically Chinese (ABC) I never had an issue with people
randomly trying to practice English with me, or with non-Chinese randomly singling me out to help
them communicate/translate. I have always wondered how my ability to "pass" affected my
experience. Any other ABC's, for whom Mandarin was definitely a foreign language care to comment
on this?










Meng Lelan -

I did what kdavid did, tell them that I couldn't speak English and act confused if they kept on
trying to speak English to me. This worked because I would tell them it is because I have a severe
hearing impairment (which is true, I have to wear hearing aids to hear). You do have to be very
strict with yourself if you want to self-impose a language pledge and you want to improve your
Chinese. Otherwise those pseudo "teach-me-English" friendships (heifeng put this into words very
well) will drag down your Chinese level very very quickly. Those of us who are in China to learn
Chinese well will self-impose the pledge (maybe this comprises one percent of all the foreigners
who come to China). Those of us who are in China to not learn Chinese well are going to keep on
speaking English to the locals and the foreigners (this would maybe comprise the other 99% of
foreigners who come to China).










xianu -

I always found that friendships with these "teach-me-english" types, if they actually were with
likable people, turned into great language exchanges, and I learned a lot of vocabulary and
especially the more colloquial verbage, plus lots of culture from them. Partly because they had
attained a certain level of english proficiency, and were obviously interested in American or
Western culture, there were things that we could talk about that would improve both my Chinese and
their English. Though of course, you have to weed out the puds from the nice folks. And that's
when making up stories about your past can be a fun and entertaining way to live.










Stefani -

Well, I was much younger then, but I had a language pledge to speak English as much as possible. I
had learned English in Indonesia, but my expressive skills were lacking. A friend who lived with
other Indonesians said that it took her 3 months before she was comfortable speaking & writing
English, and she was very smart.

I did not want it to take that long, so I forced myself to speak English as much as possible and
asking other Indonesian friends to do the same. As a result, it took me a month before I was
comfortable speaking, and started dreaming in English. Like any languages, the more time you spend
in a particular language the better your skills will be in that particular language.

It was difficult, but it worked very well, but one's language skills have to be quite high already
(I don't think it will work well with beginners, my English was probably intermediate / upper
intermediate at that time, especially for the receptive - reading and listening - portion).










Long Pan -

This article from China Daily, is about the Chinese program organised in Beijing by Princeton
University which has a language pledge; Students “must pledge to speak no other language than
Chinese for the duration of the 8 weeks to two semester program, at risk of being expelled”.
Does not say if they can read English or not. Quite impressive !












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Chinese language - Summer Study at BNU -

> Studying, Working and Living in China > Universities and Schools > Studying
Chinese in Beijing
Summer Study at BNU
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Bastonata -

Hello -
Im going to Beijing this summer, and would like to hear about anyones experiences at either BNU or
BFSU. I've lived in China before (went to CNU) so I know what to expect as far as living
accomodations go and the like. Ive read everyone's posts about these schools, but I still want
some straight personal opinions instead of just information on how to apply.
As far as what im looking for, I dont care about Wudaokou, bars and stuff. I just want quality
teachers and a good program. Thanks in advance, and this forum is the best.



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derekws -

Hi Bastonata -

Some years ago I spent half a summer at BFSU (Beiwai) through an American study abroad program.
Now, since I wasn't directly enrolled, I can't speak to the exact experience you're wondering
about. Nonetheless, I *believe* the professors I had were largely permanent Beiwai profs. They ran
a tight ship, I'd say. Class was rigorous and time was efficiently used.

In my weeks there I met quite a few directly enrolled (yearlong or BA) students, and they seemed
pretty positive about the place. The one guy I remember in particular, a BA student, seemed to be
working pretty hard, to the point that he was complaining of finger cramps from practicing
characters. (I know my posting a remark like that is doubly impressionistic, but indulge me.)
Based on those observations, it's a place I've thought about attending myself.

I know this isn't much, but I thought I'd chime in, especially since I don't think Beiwai gets
much discussion here. Hopefully others will see your post and comment. You might also poke around
with the search function, see if you can't find more about these summer programs.

best










Bastonata -

thanks derekws. I'm looking into them as we speak. I'll keep that in mind.












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Chinese Tutor - I Don't Feel Like Dancin' ~ Scissor Sisters - Page 2 -

> Extras > Other cultures and language
I Don't Feel Like Dancin' ~ Scissor Sisters
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Koneko -

Original version by Queen
Cover version by McFly

Nothing is like the Queen's original version!

Don't Stop Me Now

Tonight I'm gonna have myself a real good time
I feel alive and the world turning inside out yeah!
And floating around in ecstasy
So don't stop me now don't stop me
cause I'm having a good time having a good time

I'm a shooting star leaping through the sky
Like a tiger defying the laws of gravity
I'm a racing car passing by like lady Godiva
I'm gonna go go go
There's no stopping me

I'm burning through the sky yeah!
Two hundred degrees
That's why they call me Mister Fahrenheit
I'm travelling at the speed of light
I wanna make a supersonic man out of you

Don't stop me now I'm having such a good time
I'm having a ball don't stop me now
If you wanna have a good time just give me a call
Don't stop me now (cause I'm havin a good time)
Don't stop me now (yes I'm havin a good time)
I don't want to stop at all

I'm a rocket ship on my way to Mars
On a collision course
I am a satellite Im out of control
I am a sex machine ready to reload
Like an atom bomb about to
Oh oh oh oh oh explode

I'm burning through the sky yeah!
Two hundred degrees
That's why they call me Mister Fahrenheit
I'm travlling at the speed of light
I wanna make a supersonic woman of you

Don't stop me don't stop me
Don't stop me hey hey hey!
Don't stop me don't stop me ooh ooh ooh (I like it)
Dont stop me don't stop me
Have a good time good time
Don't stop me don't stop me ah

I'm burning through the sky yeah!
Two hundred degrees
That's why they call me mister fahrenheit
I'm travling at the speed of light
I wanna make a supersonic man out of you

Don't stop me now I'm having such a good time
I'm having a ball don't stop me now
If you wanna have a good time just give me a call
Don't stop me now (cause Im havin a good time)
Don't stop me now (yes Im havin a good time)
I don't want to stop at all

DJ. K.



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Koneko -

God, this is soooo grooovy!!!

Watch the video here.

A Smile & A Ribbon

A smile is something special
A ribbon is something rare
So I'll be special and I'll be rare
With a smile and a ribbon in my hair

To be a girl they notice
Takes more than a fancy dress
So I'll be noticed because I'll dress
With a smile and a ribbon in my tresses

The bigger my toothy grin is
The smaller my troubles grow
The louder I say "I'm happy!"
The more I believe it so

So I'll have that extra something
'cause I know what to wear
So I'll be special and I'll be rare
I'll be something beyond compare
I'll be noticed because I'll wear
A smile and a ribbon in my hair

DJ. K.










onebir -

What's the DJ stand for?










HashiriKata -



Quote:

What's the DJ stand for?

DJ. K. is Dae Jung Kim ?










Koneko -

Ha ha...

To truly enjoy a film, you must watch it from the beginning all the way to its end.

Apparently, you both have missed some of my arduous one-man-show.

Luckily, you may press this replay button to re-watch some of the creme de la creme!

Voila!

DJ. K.










Koneko -

Come on, let's fall in love!

This clip was extracted from the film, De-Lovely, portraying the life of song writer, Cole Porter.
It was a good film.

Let's Do It (Let's Fall In Love)

But that’s why birds do it,
Bees do it,
Even educated fleas do it,
Let’s do it, let’s fall in love.

In Spain the best upper sets do it,
Lithuanians and Lats do it,
Let’s do it, let’s fall in love.

The Dutch in old Amsterdam do it,
Not to mention the Finns,
Folks in Siam do it,
Think of Siamese twins.

Some Argentines without means do it,
People say in Boston even beans do it,
Let’s do it, let’s fall in love.

Cold Cape Cod clams ‘gainst their wish do it,
Even lazy jellyfish do it,
Let’s do it, let’s fall in love.

Electric eels, I might add, do it,
Though it shocks ‘em I know,
Why ask if shads do it,
Waiter bring me shad roe.

In shallow shoals English soles do it,
Goldfish in the privacy of bowls do it,
Let’s do it, let’s fall in love.

The dragonflies in the reeds do it,
Sentimental centipedes do it,
Let’s do it, let’s fall in love.

Mosquitoes, heaven forbid, do it,
So does every katydid do it,
Let’s do it, let’s fall in love.

The most refined ladybugs do it,
When a gentleman calls,
Moths in your rugs do it,
What’s the use of moth balls?

Locusts in trees do it,
Bees do it,
Even overeducated fleas do it,
Let’s do it, let’s fall in love.

Let’s do it, let’s fall in love,
Let’s do it, let’s fall in love

DJ. K.










Koneko -

What a shame!

Probably Sydney is too far away from New York and they don't go there often enough to promote
their albums?!

DJ. K.










Ding Yiyi -

DJ stands for "Disc Jockey" and the K is there because Koneko always signs his name "K."

I'm betting he put it there because he was writing out a song, and he always signs his name DJ K.
when he's putting up a song










Ding Yiyi -

Oh, and I have to agree that Queen's version is better, this song was really amazing in the movie
"Shaun of the Dead" they really timed their beating of the zombie well with the song










Koneko -

Ding Yiyi,

Ah... you're my No. 1 fan!

So touching...

DJ. K.












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Free Chinese Lesson - Charactor+Usage Statistic -

> Learning Chinese > Reading and Writing
Charactor+Usage Statistic
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KiraKira -

I've heard so many different claims on various blogs and forum searches regarding the number of
hanzi and usage percentages that I'm not sure which is correct.

For example claims like:
"100 characters cover about 50% of the used language, and 500 characters cover about 90%." .. or
variation of that statistic.

Does anyone have a source that has a pretty good arguement/analysis used to back up the claim? I
know there is some correlation (and it would be nice if it were close to the one posted) but I
just want to be sure & see what everyone thinks the closest correct claim is.



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hanyu_xuesheng -

See

http://technology.chtsai.org/charfreq/93charfreq.html

You understand knowing

100 char. 45 %
300 char. 67 %,
500 char. 77 %,
1000 char. 89 %
3000 char. 99 %

of a text.










flameproof -

You can check it yourself:

http://goulnik.com/chinese/gb/



Quote:

I just want to ... see what everyone thinks the closest correct claim is.

There is none. Because it depends all on the text you use. Some are more, some are less..... So
there is not THE list...










imron -

Just remember though that this is for characters only, so for non-native speakers who know 3000+
characters, there will still be many words that are unfamiliar. Most usage statistics like this
are really only valid for native speakers and not for language learners.










gato -

It has some similarity to the claim that just 26 letters covers 100% of English texts.










flameproof -



Quote:

Just remember though that this is for characters only, so for non-native speakers who know 3000+
characters, there will still be many words that are unfamiliar.

This is very true, however, to know a (multi character) word you need to know the individual
character first. So knowing all characters is for sure a good start.

Next step is to know all words.... But that's not it. Even if you know all words you will still
often have difficulties to figure out the meaning.



Quote:

It has some similarity to the claim that just 26 letters covers 100% of English texts.

I think it makes perfect sense to learn characters according to frequency. They are not avoidable
anyway, and it's very motivational since you can very fast recognize lots of passages.

So frequency analysis is a very useful toy for sparetime fun use, not more, not less. It's
specially useful to analyze online text that you plan to read to figure out if it's suited to your
level.

With 500 characters you can "see" 90% of the text, but the other 90% are in the remaining 10%...










imron -

I don't think there's anything wrong with learning characters by frequency, but just don't be
under the impression that once you get to 3000 you'll be able to read and understand 99% of all
texts.










atitarev -

I am in a conversational class now, what I noticed that many common words used in speech (not so
much in the written language) may not have the same frequency. In other words, all frequency
ratings are based on newspapers, formal texts, not on what you hear more often in the street (I am
talking about standard Mandarin vocabulary). Just my 2 cents, thought it was mentioning.

Lists of characters by frequency are only useful for some reviewing, not for actual studies,
anyway. Just keep reading texts. Individual frequency lists may differ largely.

I haven't seen detailed analysis of Chinese frequency lists but I've seen descriptions how
Japanese ones were made, which newpapers were used, over which period, etc.

If you do a simple search by character in google, it gives you a number of hits.










flameproof -



Quote:

Individual frequency lists may differ largely.

That is very true. But #1 is mostly 的. In the Top ten are usually 一，了，们，在，是...

I don't use it really for learning, more for Chinese related fun. But also to check before I read
something longish how many different characters are there.










KiraKira -

Thanks, I don't plan on using it like a official benchmark but its nice for perspective.












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Learn Mandarin online - stroke order differences - Page 2 -

> Learning Chinese > Reading and Writing
stroke order differences
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Page 2 of 2 < 1 2






skylee -



Quote:


Originally Posted by Jose

1. 戈 I originally learned to write this character, either isolated or as a side component, with
the dot on the top-right corner last. However, Skylee's link shows a different order, starting as
弋 and finishing with the stroke at the bottom. This is apparently the standard stroke order in
Taiwan, whereas the one I use is probably (I think) the standard one on the Mainland


I too write the dot last. I guess this is how I was taught to write it when I was a kid. I also
agree with your observation about 樂. I used to write the upper part from left to right but then
friends and other people pointed out that it was wrong (obviously they had been taught the
"correct" order) so I had to change (peer pressure) and then I found that the "correct" order was
in line with the order of the stroke input method.

I generally agree with nipponman's comment, especially with longhand writing. But you see if you
use stroke input method (like on your handset) the stroke order does matter to some extent.



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nipponman -



Quote:


Originally Posted by Jose

4. In traditional characters like 學, 興, 彎 or 樂 I always write the middle part before the
sides when doing the top (e.g. 樂 = 白 + 幺 + 幺 + 木). That's the way they taught me to
write these characters a long time ago, and seems to be the prescribed order, according to
Skylee's link. However, some Taiwan/HK/Mc people prefer to do the top of these characters from
left to right (樂 = 幺 + 白 + 幺 + 木).


I just realized that in when I started chinese I wrote 樂 like 白 + 幺 + 幺 + 木, but now,
after a little inspection, I find I write it like 幺 + 白 + 幺 + 木, which further convinces
me that it doesn't really matter.



Quote:


Originally Posted by skylee

But you see if you use stroke input method (like on your handset) the stroke order does matter to
some extent.


I can see your point here. Although I don't use things like that, I can see how it could be useful
to know the "correct" stroke order. I'm not saying stroke order isn't important per se, just once
you know the general rules, top to bottom, left to right, inside then outside, etc. its not that
big a deal. What I think is more important is being able to count the strokes. I do that all the
time when searching for characters by radical. I am often frustrated b/c my dictionary lists
radicals in simplified and I often forget and count the strokes by traditional standards, and am
sometimes several strokes off, but thats neither here nor there.










Jose -

Out of curiosity, I have checked the stroke order for the traditional four-stroke plant radical
(艹) in Skylee's link, and I have found that it is actually different from either of the two
options I mentioned. It appears there as vertical + horizontal + horizontal + vertical.










nipponman -



Quote:


Originally Posted by Jose

Out of curiosity, I have checked the stroke order for the traditional four-stroke plant radical
(艹) in Skylee's link, and I have found that it is actually different from either of the two
options I mentioned. It appears there as vertical + horizontal + horizontal + vertical.


Wow, Thats crazy. Does anybody write it this way? I go hor. +vert. + hor. + vert. as I suspect
most people do.










Altair -

I think part of the discrepancy in stroke order comes from whether you are stressing ease of
practicing or ease of writing with good proportion.

Consider a character like 臣. If I had to write it out fifty times, I would much prefer to use
the six-stroke version that draws the top and right first and ends with and "L" stroke. If I had
to make it look well-proportioned, I would much prefer to use the seven-stroke version that begins
with "丨"on the left, using it as the spine for the rest of the stokes (一,丨,乙,一,丨,一)
from top to bottom. A year or two ago someone on this forum suggested that the official Japanese
order may have followed traditional recommendations of calligraphers, which presumably would have
favored esthetics over efficiency.



Quote:

Also in traditional characters, the plant radical 艹 (three strokes in the simplified standard)
is written as two crosses (i.e. four strokes). I would expect the stroke order to be like two 十
(horizontal + vertical + horizontal + vertical). However, I remember using a textbook that would
show the correct order as vertical + horizontal + vertical + horizontal, which I find a bit
strange. I always hesitate with this radical when I write in traditional characters.

From the looks of this radical, I have always assume it was writted vertical + horizontal +
horizontal + vertical. The two crosses are definitely not symmetrical and do not appear to be
written in the same way. I had assumed that this was to avoid monotony, which seems to be a
general principal.

By the way, 隹 seems to be a component that differs between current Japanese and Chinese
practice. I first learned to finish the three horizontal strokes together, which I assumed was
more like cursive practice. Since I have tried to switch to Chinese practice, I end with the right
vertical stroke and the bottom horizontal stroke.

Another one that drives be crazy is 田. My Japanese textbooks had the final two strokes as 二,
whereas my Chinese books all have it as 土.

The only two frequent character that still drive me crazy are 飛 and 垂. 垂 is especially
depressing.












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Study Chinese - New Antiwave Podcast 人民大会谈4 - “东南西北”宋以朗 (下) - Page 3 -

> Learning Chinese > Speaking and Listening
New Antiwave Podcast 人民大会谈4 - “东南西北”宋以朗 (下)
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Page 3 of 8 < 12 3 45 > »






HashiriKata -



Quote:

if you are a vegetarian why you have to copy meat? Makes it sounds like being vegetarian is a
great sacrifice.

I think some people do this as a way to display their cooking/ artistic skills (in imitation
foods). I don't know of any Buddhist monk who likes eating fake meat and I don't imagine there
are. Normally it's the common Buddhist believers (in the sense: "I'm a Christian/ Buddhist" ) who
sometimes eat fake meat on their "vegan" days.



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Koneko -



Quote:

I think some people do this as a way to display their cooking/ artistic skills (in imitation
foods).

Chinese vegetarian food may look very healthy but it's actually very oily and full of MSG. They
normally fry (be it deep or shallow fry) the mock-meat before adding other ingredients.

K.










roddy -

This is an automatically generated post to alert users to a new Antiwave Podcast. See here for
more info.

叶京说，王朔得了艾滋病。这是怎么回事？平客要从王朔入手，说开去。
To listen to the podcast, visit the link below and click on 音频下载 (download) or
在线收听 (listen online), then post in this thread with any questions or comments. And don't
forget to leave a comment on Antiwave's own site to say thanks ;-)
More...










Long Pan -

Many thanks for this work










zhwj -

Pretty good. Ping Ke comes off fairly measured here - I talked to him just after Wang Shuo's
Phoenix TV appearance, and he said that Wang Shuo was "crazy." I do think that a lot of the
commotion about Wang's return to the literary scene is due in a large part to nostalgia. If the
book is good, though, all will be forgiven.










roddy -

This is an automatically generated post to alert users to a new Antiwave Podcast. See here for
more info.

平客和飞猪在这里和各位听众分享反波节目背后的故事。
To listen to the podcast, visit the link below and click on 音频下载 (download) or
在线收听 (listen online), then post in this thread with any questions or comments. And don't
forget to leave a comment on Antiwave's own site to say thanks ;-)
More...










roddy -

This is an automatically generated post to alert users to a new Antiwave Podcast. See here for
more info.

刘德华粉丝的父亲跳海自尽。谁害死了他？平客点解。
To listen to the podcast, visit the link below and click on 音频下载 (download) or
在线收听 (listen online), then post in this thread with any questions or comments. And don't
forget to leave a comment on Antiwave's own site to say thanks ;-)
More...










roddy -

This is an automatically generated post to alert users to a new Antiwave Podcast. See here for
more info.

英国电影《拯救阳光》 (Sunshine) 采用了互动电影官方网站进行市场推广。
To listen to the podcast, visit the link below and click on 音频下载 (download) or
在线收听 (listen online), then post in this thread with any questions or comments. And don't
forget to leave a comment on Antiwave's own site to say thanks ;-)
More...










Shadowdh -

Thanks for doing this Roddy,

I dont understand a lot at the moment (but more each day) but I really appreciate the availability
of the listening material...

Cheers










roddy -

Not much effort, I just set it up and the server does them automatically. Good to know someone's
paying attention though.












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Learn mandarin - Ordering food -

> Learning Chinese > Speaking and Listening
Ordering food
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Gaffnedm -

I have a favorite Chinese restaurant up here at school and I order the same thing every time:
Cantonese noodles with chicken (extra meat) and two egg rolls. I was wondering if someone could
help me with the proper way to order this meal in pinyin. Also, when I go to pick it up, how so I
tell them which order is mine? I've tried looking up "order" in english to chinese dictionaries,
but the only translation that I can find has to do with order in society, or the order of things,
not a takeout order. Please help!



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Learn Mandarin online - Simple resturaunt phrases.... -

> Learning Chinese > Speaking and Listening
Simple resturaunt phrases....
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Page 1 of 3 1 23 >






Strawberries513 -

wowie... I have been studying for over a year and I am still not sure how to say the following
resturaunt phrases in Mandarin. If anyone could help I would appreciate it. (and maybe let me know
how formal the phrases are so I dont sound like and idiot when i use them in the wrong resturaunt.)

(when waiter askes you what you will have to drink) I will have water

Waiter! Waitress! (to get thier attention)

ok I know, they are very basic but I want to be sure!! Thanks



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Yang Rui -

I'll have water: 我喝矿泉水 / 我要一瓶矿泉水

This should get you a bottle of mineral water, although you may also get water that's been
purified for drinking. If you just want water from the tap that's been boiled and will be served
hot, you can ask for 白开水 or 开水

Sometimes Chinese people get confused ordering water and have to explain very carefully exactly
what they want.

As for calling the waiter or waitress, in my experience it depends where you are. In the north
they tend to just shout " 服务员!" for both men and women.

In the south it seems more common to say "小姐!" for women and "先生!" for men.

If you want to be very informal in Guangdong you can say 靓女 for women and 帅哥 for men.










xiaojiang216 -

我想她应该客气一点儿










gougou -

Also see here










kudra -

presumably if you are practicing this in the US, you can drop all the modifiers of water that
signify boiling, purifying, and all that lest they think you are nuts....

But it might be useful to bookmark this post and review before you get on the plane.

The other thing about practicing in the US, is that you won't necessarily know if the servers are
from the north or south, or Taiwan, or whatever. 先生 seems safe for any male server, but my
impression is 小姐 may not be ok if the server is significantly older than you, in which case
I'm not sure. I've heard lao3ban3niang2 (I have no IME on this computer) but that might have been
a Taiwan thing. I could be wrong about the inappropriateness of 小姐, check with a native
speaker....

edit: I seem to be repeating myself.










kudra -

haven't looked at this module, but check out the bottom of this page
http://www.fsi-language-courses.com/Chinese.aspx

Optional Module: Restaurant

I'd be really surprised if it, and everything else you need, isn't covered there. It is probably
basic enough that it isn't dated.










Koneko -



Quote:

I could be wrong about the inappropriateness of 小姐, check with a native speaker....

Well, in Northern China, some people will associate the word, 小姐, to prostitute.
Hence, it's advisable not to say this phrase, 小姐来来来, in Northen China, which makes you
sound like calling a whore.

If, however, the waitress is older than you. You may certainly call her 老板娘, provided she's
the owner of the restaurant and she's serving you. Otherwise, I think it's better to call her
大婶 .

K.










Strawberries513 -

ok thanks. I will only be using these in the US (for the time being).

so can I say "我喝水“？ And what about just saying "对不起“to get the servers attention
if they are passing our table?










elina -



Quote:

And what about just saying "对不起“to get the servers attention if they are passing our table?

I would say: 小姐 or 小伙子 or 服务员，麻烦你，帮我倒杯水来，谢谢。










Koneko -



Quote:

so can I say "我喝水“？

This is merely my personal preference, I think 我想要喝水 would be better and more polite
than 我喝水.

K.












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Pnyin - 30 million more men than women in China by 2020 - Page 2 -

> Chinese Culture > Society
30 million more men than women in China by 2020
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gougou -



Quote:

I think a way the Chinese government could help this problem out is by stopping abortions that are
based on the sex of the fetus and the abandonment of baby girls.

By law, the practice of determining a child's gender before birth is illegal. Actually enforcing
those laws, though, is practically impossible.



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HashiriKata -

Should those laowai who "bought" their wife from China be partially responsible for this trend ??











Luobot -



Quote:

Should those laowai who "bought" their wife from China be partially responsible for this trend ??

Actually, if that amounted to a significant enough number to impact China, then it would have a
tremendous impact on Western male:female ratios, causing a shortage of men in the west, forcing
western women to seek Chinese husbands, eventually evening things out again.










pandaxiongmao -



Quote:

They could move to Hong Kong as there are more women than men there.

Mainland Chinese need a one-way permit to move to Hong Kong. There is a low quota, something like
50 a day for such permits (though the quota has not been used up the past few years). If they are
amongst the least-educated 30 million Chinese men, I doubt they would be picked to get such a
permit. The priority is first for spouses and family that have been separated a long time, then
spouses and family that have been separated a short time, then other people.

There is also the fact that Hong Kong women are generally better-educated than mainland women. If
those men want a woman that is educated the same, or educated less than they are, Hong Kong will
be no better for them.










Xiaohua -

Send them to me! I would not mind picking a man from them.LOL!!

Back on topic- I think too that they should stop the one child policy. I was arguing with this
girl who was adament about how the one child policy in china was flawless. I told her that there
would be problems with it, and I was right. If this policy continues, then the people could
possibly die out. Because it is the women who carry the babies. And if they are decresing, then
what?! Not to mention the females who can't have children. So they really need to consider that.
Is it really so wrong for a woman to have a child?! My goodness!!










Ardison -

The root issue is the traditional value in the general public. A friend of mine has 4 daughters
just because he keeps on and wants to have a baby boy.
This is just a bit of the phenomeon in the society.
Through education the gap may turn lower, but the time taken will not be short.










gougou -



Quote:

If this policy continues, then the people could possibly die out.

Of course, the policy is not going to be carried on that long. The main point is to keep the
population at reasonable levels, which apparently it does quite a good job at - word is China's
population would be at 1.7 billion without it.

While the male-female gap is a problem, I think what is going to be more severe are the effects on
the pension system.










Xiaohua -

Gougou- I don't think that the numbers are level. Because if it was there would be no gap. I'm not
sure how long the policy will continue, but I heard that the law is in place permenately. So if
I'm wrong let me know, because I'm not sure about how long the policy is.










gougou -



Quote:

I heard that the law is in place permenately

That is most likely the case, but once they don't consider it necessary anymore, they can rescind
it pretty much over night. The people in charge are well aware of the problem and its effects
especially on rural stability, and they are doing a lot to reduce the gender imbalance. If at any
point they decide that the one-child policy's negative impact on the gender balance outweighs its
benefits to overall population development, I am sure the policy will be rescinded very quickly.










chenpv -

Well, since it is genetically decided that, without interference, approximately equal number of
both male and female babies are to be born, I am afraid I really don't see any possibility that
One-Child policy, or any regulations concerning birth rate control (if they dont go against
natural law) could be the ultimate reason of such a gender disparity in China. On the other hand,
I tend to agree with Ardison that this boy-over-girl traditional value is more responsible. Just
so much news can you get from all kinds of resources that baby girls are deserted or stealthily
murdered (sometimes by their own parents, crazy indeed.) once born, let alone those who are
aborted before coming to this world.

Quote:


Originally Posted by bhchao

I wonder what would be the effects of shifting to a two-child policy. That was a policy originally
conceived by Zhou Enlai.during the 60's.


As far as I can see, the only perceivable result of this policy would have been disastrous if it
were carried out now, given people won't be able to change their mind in treating baby boys and
girls. As long as having two boys is thought to be much better off than having only one, and
likewise one boy better than none, I cannot be too pessimistic but see an even bigger disparity
between two genders in Chinese population.

Quote:


Originally Posted by Meng Lelan

may push increasing numbers of Chinese men to move to other countries in search of partners


Well, I do doubt that China will permit such a loss of human resource in the next few years. But
there ARE some friends from Yunan that once told me 'impoverished, docile, fertile and cheap' (to
quote him, not me saying these.) females from countries bordering south China are available to: 1.
marriage; 2. having children, whom would be brought to China once born.












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Learn Chinese - How many words -

> Learning Chinese > Speaking and Listening
How many words
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DrZero -

Hi everybody. I am interested in people's opinions: How much vocabulary do you think is required
to participate effectively in everyday Mandarin conversations on non-technical topics? I guess
that would be intermediate level. I do not mean characters, but vocabulary items. For example,
counting "tao3yan4" as a single item.
I am trying to set a New Year's resolution for vocabulary. I am married to a Chinese woman and
have self-studied off-and-on (mainly "off") for quite some time. I'm probably a high beginner;
because I hear Mandarin every day, day-in and day-out, my listening comprehension is not too bad,
if I happen to know the words being used. Unfortunately my vocabulary is pretty limited.
If a Chinese conversation is going on around me, I'm likely to catch significant portions of it,
especially if it's on an everyday topic, but will miss many other portions. As far as
participating, I'm too tongue-tied to do so in any kind of natural manner.
I guess I'm looking to make a break-through this year, but am not sure exactly what it will take
to get to where I want to be.



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wix -

It is a good idea to set goals, but measuring the exact number of words you know once you get
beyond a few hundred is difficult. Also there is a difference between passive and active
knowledge. It seems your passive vocabulary is already reasonable. You need to do more to work on
your active vocabulary.

I would set yourself some goals. For example, learn five new words a day or be able to hold a five
minute conversation with a stranger.

Also carry a notebook and make notes of words you hear and want to use and remember. Later check
them in the dictionary or ask your wife.










laowai1980 -

That's a pretty interesting topic. I feel my passive vocabulary is also way beyond my active
vocab. Are there other ways to improve the active vocabulary and "tongue-tiedness" apart from
talking to a stranger or whatever? Where I am, there are not too many Chinese people, and I am
already tired of talking to myself, which I practise on daily basis for the past 3 months, but
it's kinda boring and weird So yeah, that's an issue most learners are probably concerned with -
how to actualize the vocab. Any ideas?

As for how many words - based on learning other languages experience, it'd take ~3k words to feel
ok in daily situations. See, the problem is, you may do ok with ~1k words in most conversations,
but then you get some where you don't know a word here and a word there, which could be crucial to
understanding what the heck it's all about, so you end up clueless on what's going on or miss out
on details which is a more likely case. So it's best to learn as many words as possible of course,
or you'd be asking the interlocutor what this means, what that means all the time, which blocks
the natural flow of the speech. The next level is 6-7k words, which includes many social,
economic, political words and expressions, enough to understand the broadcasted news.










calibre2001 -

I recommend watching lots of TV shows (preferably with subtitles) as it helps alot in making new
words stick better. Sometimes people talk too fast, that's why Youtube is a blessing since I can
pause the show!










djwebb2004 -

Well, one answer is that the HSK Intermediate includes about 5500 words, and the Advanced includes
8840 words. Of course, there is learning words, and there is learning how to use them. But
learning more words obviously does help. In most languages about 10,000 words would see you very
proficient as a foreigner, but native speakers of most languages have vocabularies of
20,000-50,000. Obviously "what is a word" varies from language to language, but 10,000 is a decent
number of lexical items in any language.










wushijiao -

A fascinating book that I would urge people to buy is “Second Langauge Vocabulary
Acquisition”, edited by James Coady and Thomas Huckin (you should be able to buy it for cheap in
China, as it is published by 上海外语教育出版社).

Anyway, one of the studies in the book referring to reading, tested batches of students on a
reading tests. The students were divided into levels of knowing 2,000 word families, 3,000, 4,000
and 5,000. (Note: a word family might be:: find, findings, finder..etc, would all belong to one
word family).

After the test, the researcher concluded that while the 5,000 did better than the 4,000, who did
better than the 3,000…etc, there was a huge differences between the 2,000 and the 3,000. Later
on, the book gives other studies that suggest the 3,000 word families (corresponding to about
5,000 words) is the threshold needed to understand a text at the bare minimum. At the threshold
level, people can begin to make good use of other reading strategies such as guessing in context,
looking at prefixes/suffixes, using background info and the such.

3,000 word families corresponds to understanding roughly 90-95% of an average text.

What would this mean for learners of Chinese? I would guess that the whole word families vs. word
debate is much less important in Chinese, but the general ballpark of 4,000-5,000 words as the
minimum necessary to adequately understand a text probably holds true.

Dr. Zero’s question referred to conversations, and my guess would be that conversations, on
average, require less vocabulary than written texts, and therefore the number of words needed to
understand a conversation might be slightly less (around 4,000 words?).

In any case, I think vocabulary acquisition is extremely important, but it seems that somewhere
around 4,000-5,000 words is the key mark, at which you can then really start to make sense of
stuff. I hope that helps.










DrZero -

Thaks everybody for your replies. So I think I'll make my it my goal this year to reach a
vocabulary of 3,000 to 4,000 words, while at the same time studying grammar. I measure myself by
the number of flashcards I make, which is not an exact science because sometimes I'll write down a
word I already know but in a different usage, or I'll write down a phrase. But I figure it's more
or less a good measure. I guess I only know about 1,000 words now. That makes things really
hit-or-miss in terms of understanding.










leosmith -

Pimsleur suggests around 2500. But I imagine you want to be very comfortable in the language,
because it's your wife's. So you probably want 10,000. How many words can you learn in a day,
sustained? 5 to 20 are numbers I hear a lot. Just multiply by 300 or so, and you have a good goal
for the year. To help manage the vocab, you may want to use a flashard program that figures out
the bare minimum to review each day. Examples: supermemo; mnemosyne; twinkle.










griz326 -

20-50,000 word vocabularies? I'd like to know how they counted the words? It's been a few years,
but I read a study that said the average American had a vocabulary of less than 10k words.

My Chinese study is going nowhere fast.

Pimsleur (I'm doing Pimsleur) doesn't want to teach you pinyin, yet pinyin seems to be an
important learning tool. ...and then there are the characters.

OYE!

I've decided to mix and match a few different courses to see if I feel like I'm making better
progress.










djwebb2004 -

First of all there is a difference between active and passive vocabulary. The 20,000-50,000
estimates are the higher end of the passive vocabulary.

Now all languages exhibit different morphological patterns, and so counting words in different
languages for comparison purposes is fraught with difficulties. If you look at the A's in the
Collins dictionary (Millennium edition), you can find as headwords "abandon", "abandoned" and
"abandonee". Beneath the word "abandon", there are 2 more bold words/phrases, "abandon ship" and
"abandonment". The definition also shows that "abandon" is a noun as well as a verb, eg "she
danced with abandon". "Abandoned" as a headword is an adjective, eg an abandoned windmill, but
clearly is also a participle. How many "words", "headwords" and "word families" are here? I
presume that they are all one word family, but in terms of inflected words, you have: abandon,
abandons, abandoned, abandoning, abandonee, abandonment - six words. And as I said, Collins
divides them into three headwords. You could argue that as many past participles can be used as
adjectives, there should be only two headwords: abandon, abandonment. But in Chinese there would
only be one word owing to the lack of inflections: 遗弃, but a large series of synonyms too:
放弃,抛弃,丢弃,废弃,摒弃, and many more.

So: first of all you have to eliminate inflected forms from the comparison, and you have to
account for the fact that word division varies between languages: German words combine many words
into one long word. However, it seems clear that in this case there is one word family and two
head words and 6 inflected words. I believe linguists think 10,000 head words would be a good
English vocabulary. inflected this would be many more (did, does, done, doing,, etc), and would be
equivalent to fewer word families. Now in Chinese: each character has a meaning, or generally so,
so I regard characters as the "roots" of the language. 5000 roots = 5000 characters, can make up
well over 100,000 words (ABCD has 60,000 characters making up 200,000 words, but most of those
characters are rare and not productive i n terms of forming bisyllabic words). In fact if you
learn all the HSK words plus the 1018 supplementary characters in a book I have posted about in
this forum, you will have 4000 characters making up 10,000 words andd the ability to guess at tens
of thousands of other words written using those same 4000 characters. So probably 10,000 headwords
in English corresponds to these 10,000 words in Chinese, or maybe slightly more headwords in
English would correspond to those 10,000 words in Chinese given the way that Chinese words can
frequently be nouns and verbs at the same time and cover the ground covered by 2 headwords such as
abandon and abandonment in English.

The conclusion: learn those 4000 characters and 10,000 words. Everything else is a bonus!












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HSK - Curse of the golden flower - 满城尽带黄金甲 - spoiler FREE! - Page 2 -

> Chinese Culture > Films and Television
Curse of the golden flower - 满城尽带黄金甲 - spoiler FREE!
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skylee -

I think the purpose is to show the audience that at that court and in that country everything must
be run by the established rules and according to the time assigned. The announcements tell people
the time and what they should do at that time. Everything must be very orderly (as the king says
有規矩). They also tell people what each hour (two hours actually) is supposed to mean.



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babygodzilla -



Quote:

Isn't that 张艺谋's style? It reminds me of the athens olympics closing ceremony...

well if it's his style to display boobs falling out, then he's a pervert... and i like him


but what do the hours mean? i dont understand anything those people say... some kind of poem or
something..

btw anyone know the name of the doctor's daughter? more pictures? i thought she was cute










Ian_Lee -

I have not watched the movie yet even though it is shown in the local theaters and know more or
less the movie is about boob/incest/palace intrigue.

However, I wonder how come this movie, which concentrates on the royal court, adopts its title
from a poem of 黃巢 -- a proletariat revolutionary/bandit/murder maniac (defined according to
your own political inclination):

不第後賦菊

待到秋來九月八，我花開後百花殺。 沖天香陣透長安，滿城盡帶黃金甲。

And I heard Zhang Yimou has changed the film title several times before he adopted this one. Any
clue?










skylee -

Probably because the story takes place before / on Chong Yang Festival (Chrysanthemum Festival)
[九月八] and the flower [菊] plays an important part in the film.










babygodzilla -

doctor's daughter's name? pics?










skylee -

The doctor's daughter's name is 蔣嬋 (Jiang Chan). The actress' name is 李曼 (Li Man). You can
find her pictures here.












Quest -

Does he think boobs and legs are a symbol of classiness or something? His command on colors and
cinematics is world class, but his girls ruined it all.

Athens Olympics Closing Ceremony:











student -

does anyone know where I might find the screenplay (or for that matter, the chinese/english
subtitles)?










gougou -

Danwei gathered some reviews and criticism here and here.

One quote that struck me: "If we've spent that much money to tell the public that good cannot
overcome evil, then the director is a real bastard."

Not sure what to make of it. Is that what Zhang Yimou wants to say? Does he want to say anything
at all? It'd be interesting to review some of his older movies with this assumption in mind. If I
remember correctly, the end of House of Flying Daggers has a lot of intrigues surfacing and the
main actors dying, too?










Koneko -



Quote:

If I remember correctly, the end of House of Flying Daggers has a lot of intrigues surfacing and
the main actors dying, too?

I don't really like the end of that film.
I am not good at guessing the outcome.
It's either yes or no but no maybe.












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Free Chinese Lesson - Buying a dSLR in Beijing - Page 2 -

> Studying, Working and Living in China > Living in China
Buying a dSLR in Beijing
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adrianlondon -

A friend of mine (a local) went to Zhongguancun yesterday to enquire about laptops. He was told
that most places have a sale over Christmas. Of course, not really having the same pre-Christmas
rush that we get in the UK, the sale starts around 20th December.



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bianfuxia -

You might like to price compare at the Beijing Photography City at Wukesong. It probably
(certainly) has a better range of equipment than Zhongcunguan and I think you might get a slightly
better price too. The place has a large number of shops selling every conceivable photographic
item (vintage cameras through to the latest pro dSLRs). They are generally overpriced on 2nd hand
equipment though.

The staff at the various stores are pretty relaxed about you handling stuff, so you can physically
compare things too. Also, the sales pressure is generally pretty low, unlike ZCG (in my unhappy
experience of that place anyway!).

If you don't know where it is or how to get there let me know.












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