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gato -



Quote:

Anyways, I could hear their conversation clearly and not only did their conversation include the
odd English word, they would also drop whole English phrases in the middle of or at the end of
their sentences.

It's probably because they speak mostly English at work, and as a result, sometimes English
words/phrases roll off the tongue faster than Chinese ones.



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Xiao Kui -



Quote:

The likelihood that two caucasians mutually speak better Chinese than English is small, so when
you do speak in Chinese together it looks/sounds incredibly pretentious to other foreigners and
many Chinese, and just plain stupid to other Chinese.

I wholeheartedly disagree. Also the speakers could be just honoring a language pledge

If you're Caucasian then Chinese are constantly trying to corner you into speaking English, even
when your level of proficiency in their language is much more advanced then theirs in yours. You
have to take advantage of any opportunity you get to speak Chinese, and if someone is willing to
speak Chinese with you then you can't afford to be picky abt that person's race. Instead of
judging foreigners who speak English to each other, you might try imitating this habit, then you
won't be jealous of their Chinese and insist on accusing them of being pretentious. (Okay, now I'm
judging, but when we accuse others of showing off a lot of times it just sounds like we're
jealous.)

Although it's true that practice with a native speaker is the best option, any kind of practice
that is forcing you to think in and express yourself in Chinese has value!










david1978 -



Quote:

Where did that come from? Are we reading different threads?

Roddy, this attitude is far and wide. I'm surprised you haven't encountered it living in China
amongst Sinophiles. You can see it in the very title of this thread: "Why Do Caucasians Love
English?" The inference of course is that there is something wrong with "Caucasians" (what an
absurd choice of a word) "loving" English. I'm sure you would never see a post about why the
Chinese "love" Mandarin. Chinese is beautiful, and historically rich, and has so much cultural
value, and blah, blah, blah...but English is just a "tool for communication."










roddy -

I can't see anyone doing that here and I'd have to sit down and think before I could claim to have
encountered it in China. I suspect it's the kind of thing you've got to decide exists before you
can see it.










Mugi -

Sthubbar,

You may want to re-read my original post and work on your English reading comprehension before
focusing on your Chinese... The conclusions you draw regarding what is pretentious and what is not
are illogical. Having said that, it's clear that you're not here looking for answers, but rather
simply intent on venting your anger at the seemingly rude way someone dealt with what appears to
me (not having been there I can't be sure, so I'll apologize in advance if I'm totally off-base
here) your prattish and/or insulting behavior.



Quote:

I wonder what the OP would think of native speaking Chinese speaking English to native speaking
Chinese. I see a lot more of that go on frankly. Not when I'm by myself - I'm not caucasian, but
all the time when I'm with my husband (who is).

Sthubbar, what do you think? I find this equally pretentious, especially when their English is
clearly not as good as their Chinese. However, as someone else has said more clearly than I did
initially, if English is the best common language of communication between them, then I don't have
a problem with it (Northern Chinese and Taiwanese visiting HK often have to resort to English to
communicate). It's usually easy to tell from someone's body language, mannerisms and tone whether
they're being "pretentious" or not.

Sthubbar, in all honesty, which language could you and the German student most easily communicate
in? If it's English, then if I were the German guy I would feel offended at being approached in
Chinese. If Chinese is really the more effective language, then there are clearly other issues
involved between the two of you.










yonitabonita -



Quote:

I'm sure you would never see a post about why the Chinese "love" Mandarin. Chinese is beautiful,
and historically rich, and has so much cultural value, and blah, blah, blah...but English is just
a "tool for communication."

I think that's an unfair distortion of the meaning of the post.

In his own words:


Quote:

Chinese, like any other language is a tool for communication, and I find it far more pretentious
for people to advocate that the language you speak should be determined by your ethnicity

I think Imron meant that 'language' is a tool for communication. Not that 'English' is 'just' a
tool for communication. I can't say that any fair reading of his comment can lead one to conclude
that he was privileging one language over the other. In fact I'm quite baffled by the logical leap
- that is, if of course, you were referring to Imron's comment - forgive me if you were just using
his quote to illustrate something else entirely different.

Frankly, through my time living here, or anywhere else, I've seen no evidence of Chinese language
worship at the expense of English. Sure, that attitude might exist - because every sort of
attitude must exist - but I can honestly say that I've never encountered it.

y










wushijiao -

I think the spirit of the original post was something along the lines of “I have come to this
school to learn Chinese. You have come here to learn Chinese. Why don’t you want to speak
Chinese?” Perhaps some of the wording here are there could have been improved, but then again,
we all make unintentional mistakes in phraseology.

Perhaps, in order to avoid casting doubt of the pretentiousness/worthiness of other human beings,
it might be best to say up front, “do you mind if I only speak in Chinese? I know it may seem
strange, but I’m really here to learn, and I’m kind of doing a language pledge thing (explain
if need be)”. If they agree, they agree. If not, just use English, or whatever works best. No
hard feelings. Maybe we could all decrease the negative feelings towards others.










Mugi -



Quote:

I wholeheartedly disagree.

Why?



Quote:

Also the speakers could be just honoring a language pledge

This may or may not be a good language acquisition method, but it appears not to be the situation
here.



Quote:

If you're Caucasian then Chinese are constantly trying to corner you into speaking English, even
when your level of proficiency in their language is much more advanced then theirs in yours.

This is getting a bit OT, but I never had this problem (and I'm as white as they come) when I
lived in China or whenever I travel back there. But I do hear a lot of people complaining about
it. Seems to happen here in Japan too, although to a lesser degree. I think it has more to do with
the way other people see you - do you look like you'd be up for chatting in English? I'm often
told I look "serious" (so probably not very affable), which might account for why I've never had
this problem










imron -



Quote:

What irritates me is that all you guys who look down upon any Westerner who cherishes and values
his own history and language as a bigot or zealot, will endlessly admire the ethnocentricity and,
basically, cultural chauvinism and supremacism of the Chinese. To me, this is a pathetic double
standard.

How does speaking Chinese to other westerners equal looking down at people who cherish their own
values, history and language, and how does it equal endlessly admiring the Chinese? That's an
amazing leap of logic you've made there.

To get back on topic though, language is shaped and formed by the things you mention, but at the
end of the day, it's still a tool used for communicating those things and more to the people
around you. My purpose in learning Mandarin isn't so I can change my identity to somehow be more
Chinese or because I think the cultures and beliefs are somehow better than my own, rather it is
to communicate with those around me. Sometimes those around me are other westerners who, as
students of Mandarin, also like practising their Chinese. In such a situation I see nothing
pretentious or wrong with doing that.










Mugi -



Quote:

Perhaps, in order to avoid casting doubt of the pretentiousness/worthiness of other human beings,
it might be best to say up front, “do you mind if I only speak in Chinese? I know it may seem
strange, but I’m really here to learn, and I’m kind of doing a language pledge thing (explain
if need be)”. If they agree, they agree. If not, just use English, or whatever works best. No
hard feelings.

Some sound advice!












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